http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/ The Philo-Celtic Society School Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:45:44 GMT Muiris Mag Ualghairg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2917 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2917 You may have heard of it in the United States, and Innealltóir may have as well, but I hadn't heard the term used in the context of Scots Linguistics (and I Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:56:45 GMT Mark McHugh http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2916 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2916 ... LOL! Leather-tongued Sasanaigh. By the way, I've heard the term "Scottish burr" here in the States. My Webster's Dictionary has this as the origin of Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:41:46 GMT innealtoir77@... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2915 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2915 The reason the Irish spoke english, those that did, did so only because the invaders destroyed their books and under penalty of death could only speak english. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:36:21 GMT innealtoir77@... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2914 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2914 There are a lot of things you evidently haven't heard. Pick up a dictionary sometime and look up the definition of a word. Preferably an American dictionary. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:28:22 GMT innealtoir77@... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2913 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2913 Burr, when you listen to an accomplished Irish speaker, you will hear the --burr--that is the rolling of a -r- in some circumstances or definitely a double Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:02:53 GMT Larry Mike Wilson (Labhras) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2912 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2912 That actually makes more sense, because why would the English speakers use the word brog in the first place. They spoke English na Gaeilge. Wouldn’t they be Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:07:39 GMT Lysana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2911 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2911 ... The folkloric answer is likely to be incorrect, yes, though I find it interesting that Wiktionary notes the claim that the term started out to mean "Speaks Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:38:33 GMT James http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2910 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2910 A folkloric answer: It is why the English called it a brogue. Between the accent and the deliberate or non deliberate skewing of the English language to fit Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:05:06 GMT Muiris Mag Ualghairg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2909 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2909 I've never heard the term Scottish Burr before but there is a Northumbrian Burr which is basically the area of Northumbria where they speak/spoke Northumberian Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:07:45 GMT Marjorie Perron http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2908 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2908 Thank you all for this info.  I had no idea that it was insulting.  I have also heard the term "Scottish Burr". Is that insulting too? ... From: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:04:56 GMT Marjorie Perron http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2907 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2907 I have a friend who is a linguistics professor.  At one point he and some colleagues had discussions in both French and English. One day he started to say Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:26:02 GMT innealtoir77@... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2906 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2906 A Chairde, again, an important point I omitted from my previous post, when you do hear someone refer to an Irish born speaker as having a --brogue-- correct Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:21:11 GMT innealtoir77@... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2905 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2905 A chairde, the term brogue when used by other than the Irish is an intended insult to the Irish diaspora. When you start to be a little more immersed in the Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:06:39 GMT Anyse Joslin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2904 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2904 I usually remove all other message when I write but, this time, I did not. Due to my own lack of clarity, I was trying to make the "they" non-Irish and Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:51:32 GMT Patrick Caffrey http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2903 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2903 I have found many Irish nationals to dislike the term "brogue" to describe the way they speak. I think a more appropriate question is: "why do WE call it..."